An Interview: Being a good leader and Investing in your people

by Amy Parrish

In today's video, I'm talking with Chris Devine, a Dispatch Manager at JMT who recently attended one of our leadership coaching retreats with his fantastic parent company, The Rasmussen Group. He and I found that we have a lot of similar philosophies about leadership, training and people. Our discussion really touches on the fact that effective leadership in tough industries like trucking and heavy equipment requires genuine care, mutual respect, and treating employees as valued individuals rather than replaceable resources. I appreciate the heart the Chris brings to leadership and am happy to share our conversation with others. Below are some key take-aways, along with a full transcript of the video:

Key Insights from our discussion:

Building Relationships

• Relationships are foundational to effective leadership, something that wasn't emphasized 20 years ago but is expected by newer workers today
• Leadership begins with building relationships from day one
• Getting to know employees as individuals helps leaders understand how to communicate effectively with each person

Family-First Philosophy

• Companies that genuinely prioritize family create stronger loyalty
• Including families in company events shows that the organization cares about the whole person
• Family-inclusive events demonstrate investment in employees beyond their work roles

Respect as a Two-Way Street

• Respect must be earned, not demanded because of position
• Giving respect first is how leaders earn respect in return
• Leaders should never ask employees to do something they wouldn't do themselves

Handling Mistakes Effectively

• Focus on the problem, not the person
• Assume positive intent - nobody comes to work wanting to make mistakes
• Understand that employees may not realize they're making the same mistake repeatedly
• Allow emotions to cool down before addressing issues

Demonstrating Care

• Caring about employees as people, not just resources, creates loyalty
• Showing genuine interest and remembering personal details about employees and their families
• Paying attention to employees shows that you care
• Authenticity matters - people can tell when care is genuine

Leading with Heart

• A leader's job includes protecting their people
• Being a leader means sometimes acting as a mentor or even "psychiatrist"
• Care about employees as much as or more than the job itself

Leadership Mindset

• True leaders want their people to shine more than themselves
• Leadership requires transparency, honesty, and trust
• Mindset change precedes behavior change - caring deeply shifts how you view employees and their work

Transcript

Amy: Okay, well in this episode I am talking to Chris Devine and I'm so glad that, Chris, you could join me and just have a chat 'cause we've been training together, over the last month we were just together. And so it's really nice to get to have a chance to chat with you. So thanks for coming.

Chris: Well, thanks for the invite. I appreciate it.

Amy: Yeah, should be fun. Well, you know, Chris, I think you and I really connected at that training 'cause we did a lot around personality styles and, we talked a lot about how are we working to try to bring new younger employees into the fold and how are we helping mentor them? And in addition to that, how are we getting the knowledge out of the veteran employee who's been around a long time and has a hard time kind of letting go of what they do know in order to, kind of pass on their tribal knowledge to those that are gonna be, coming up in the ranks. So I really enjoyed our conversation and I appreciate you coming on.

Amy: Absolutely. So Chris, tell us, tell us about what you do.

Chris: I am dispatch manager at JMT. We haul rock, sand, mud, concrete, dirt, whatever it is. Really big projects, really small projects, interstate projects, housing developments. Yeah. We have 84 trucks of our own and then we rent anywhere from nothing all the way up to an extra 150 trucks a day.

Amy: Wow. So it's a...

Chris: Busy season is starting to crank up again.

Amy: It is. We got the itch. There's some work out there. Hopefully it's better than last year. You know, there's a rough year for everybody last year. Yeah. So we're hoping for, we're hoping for good things and it's starting off better than it did before.

Amy: Oh, Good. So it's, it's, it's getting there. Yeah. Well, so when you guys get super busy, what does that really mean for you with regard to pulling people in, getting them trained up and keeping the operation moving kind of smoothly?

Chris: In the dispatch world, it's a lot more difficult. There's a steep learning curve when it comes to a lot of different things. Sand isn't just sand rock isn't just rock. Yeah. You gotta know what the equipment does. You know, we have many different combinations that we can use. One truck can do this, one truck can't do that. One truck can haul heavy, one truck can't. So there's a learning curve with that and we try to find people, but it's a, it's an absolute beast, you know? Yeah. You really have to have the, the drive to continue on learning how to do it because it is such a steep learning curve. I was lucky 'cause I drove first, so I knew half the battle, you know? Yeah. We're constantly training drivers though. We're constantly, constantly training drivers on what to do, how to do things, and those have been some of the best dispatchers that I've seen come through anyways.

Amy: Yeah. So, right. So, so I mean, I, I know that in all of, you know, I work, I really concentrate in heavy equipment now. I'm starting to work with clients like you that use heavy equipment. And, and so, you know, we're really kind of now I'm, I'm working for a manufacturer of the equipment to distributor of the equipment, to the user of the equipment. And it's really interesting in heavy industry, how people are really attracted to it. They either really love it or they get in and go, this is too hard. And they get out. So what, what is it for you? What how'd you get into this industry?

Chris: Really it was a kind of just by happenstance. I left my previous job before this and I told myself I'd never drive again. I never would. I ended up driving again through JMT, met some really impressive people, Kenny, who's, who was, in charge of hiring all the drivers at that point. Yeah. And I then I told him, a couple years in, I was like, this is not my end game. I don't want to drive the rest of my life. I love JMT, I love the company. They stand for good things. They, they go out and they show what they talk about. Mm. It's very hard to find a place that does something like that. Right. So I was able to get into dispatch and I just never left.

I like being busy and you don't know which way you're gonna go from day to day, from minute to minute to hour to hour. You could take five phone calls in a matter of a minute, or you could take phone call every three hours. Yeah. It's something different every day. Even though it's the same, it's something different, but it's, you, you either really want to be involved or you really don't. It's, it's a, it's a way of life more than anything.

Amy: Yeah. I get, I get that. I, I think that is such a good point. I, and so it either really suits your temperament or it just doesn't, and, you know, quickly, so, You know, Yeah. If you love it, man, you stay and there's, and there's things to do that are interesting in this industry. I I, you talk about JMT being a great company work for, and I mean, their parent company is the Rasmussen Group, also a wonderful family company, that really cares about employees, cares about safety. And that's why we all came together was, all the Rasmussen group, companies were bringing their leadership together to talk about what mattered.

And so, you know, Chris in a really, like, in this industry, it's tough people, it's a tough industry and it's tough guys in this industry. And so we, you know, I think that's where we kind of connected, is in trying to look at how do we as tough guys come into this industry and build relationship so that guys know that you care about them. 'cause this is what employees want. They wanna know I'm cared about, I'm missed if I'm not here. My safety matters. My family matters. My life matters. You know, who I am as an individual matters. So my training matters. All these things really count. But how, I mean, I don't know. What do you think? I, I've watched, I've been in the industry 20 years. I have watched a really interesting thing happen where we hardly mentioned the word relationship when I was there 20 years ago and trying to build comradery in a team. It happened, it happened, but it kind of wasn't at the forefront.

And so now in order to attract newer workers coming in, they kind of, they expect it. Oh yeah. What, what do you see as a real shift that industry has to make in order to attract in people around, you know, just this care team relationship building? I don't know. I mean, just what have you noticed?

Chris: I think the main thing that, our company is really, really good at is they, they do take family first over everything. They will let a lot of things go as long as you're willing to communicate with them, and they will work with you in ways that I have never seen. Hmm. They have an event, every year and it's for your whole family, your whole immediate family. And you just don't see things like that. They have a great, it's a, what they call the wind water works. It's a big huge picnic. It's ice cream, it's, it's food, it's grilled food. There's a dunk tank, there's human foosball. Things like that resonate with families because a lot of times it's for the employee only. And sometimes the families involved, they want families involved. Yeah. They want to see everybody. They want to remember everybody. When you go to those things, everybody remembers who you are. They remember your family, they remember your wife, they remember your kids. Oh my gosh, she's grown so much. You know, things like that are so important because it shows that they're actually paying attention.

Amy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They're taking an interest in you above and beyond. You're just driving a truck. You are just dispatching trucks. You're just doing paperwork. It's, they're investing in you as a person. And you don't find that very often. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle. They talk the talk, but when it comes down to walking the walk, that's where most people fall flat on their face. 'cause it's hard. Yeah. It's not just saying, go do this. Go get this done. This is the way I did it. Go do it. Right. You almost have to ha hold their hand and you have to give 'em accolades along the way sometimes in order to show, Hey, you know, I am paying attention to what you're doing.

Chris: I think that's the biggest change that I've seen more than anything. Than anything.

Amy: Yeah. Wow. That's good. That's great. I, and I love the idea that paying attention, just paying attention Right. Is what shows that you care. The other thing of saying yes, we're family first and then doing something where you actually invite the family. Right. It's So obvious. But I mean, at the same time, it's not really, it's not done that often anymore.

Chris: No Call. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy: And I know, Komatsu in Chattanooga, I, I have a cousin that works there 'cause I'm from that area. And, they look forward to, they do a big Christmas party every year. They do a big summer gathering every year, same thing. And the whole family's involved in fun prizes and fun. You know, it's just, everybody looks forward to it. So it becomes a real asset for a company. You know, that your kids would look forward to it. It's something you, you know, you work hard and you can offer this. It's a benefit. So it's a nice idea when it comes to, I, you know, one thing that I'm curious about, and I'm, I'm talking to lots of people who are in leadership positions here, is when it's time to really get some kind of behavior change out of employees and really level with them on what's going on.

I think a lot of what we think is the right way to handle it, especially for new leaders, I've been doing a lot of work with new supervisors, is that we're, you know, we're a little heavy handed. We go in, we lay down the law, we, you know, tell 'em what to do. We, and, and instead of finding some ways to really collaborate and figure out what the real issue is. And I know that you had some thoughts on that 'cause we went back and forth in an email, after the meeting. And I, I, I'd love for you to just share with me a little about that.

Chris: I think it all starts from the beginning, to be a good, in my opinion, to be a good manager, to be a good supervisor, to be a good leader that's built from day one. You almost have to earn some of that respect, but you own that by giving that respect to that other person. Right. You can't just come in there and tell somebody what to do because of a, you're in a position of power. That's just not the way it works anymore. Yeah. When you build that relationship from day one, you can lay out your expectations. You get to know the person, then you know how to communicate with them. Sometimes you have to bang your head fists on the table to get it through. To some people, sometimes you have to coddle 'em a little bit. Everybody, everybody reacts a little bit different and their pressure points are a little bit different. But you don't know that until you talk to 'em, spend some time with them.

The main thing that I have always taken with me after one of the best bosses I've ever had was he told me straight up, Chris, I'm never gonna make you or expect you to do something I would not do myself. And I have taken that with me forevermore, and that was when I was 21. And that was right when I got my CDL. Hmm. And till this day, if we have a driver that's struggling with something, or they need something, help with something, or their box is a mess and they need help scooping out or whatever, I'm always one of the first ones out there to help them, to show them, we will help you get through this. We're gonna get through this together, we're gonna get this figured out. But it's all just showing them that it's the expectation if I'm willing to do it, you need to be willing to do it. Yeah. And I've never had anybody blk at me after that. They've, nobody's ever said anything to me when I said, Hey, you gotta make sure your box is clean. They'll take the time to make sure it's right. But it's because I've shown them if I'm, if I care about it, they need to care about it.

Amy: Right. Right. Yeah. You know, That's, that's the worst thing to get through to somebody, if you don't know 'em. Yeah, sure. Right. Right. Yeah. And it, and it's a, it's a huge, way of building respect.

Chris: You, you won't get anywhere without it. Yeah. You, you have to have that mutual respect. And it's harder for somebody to respect a new leader than it is a leader to respect somebody that they're managing or leading because they just assume they're getting it. Whereas the other person, well, what's this person really about? If it's a new leader, maybe I don't get along with them. Maybe I don't like him. Maybe he sounded really bad to me, or he came off short. Yeah. They don't see it as a bad day. They see it as it's a personal attack against them and, and it turns them off. I'm, I'm serious. It, I've seen it. It's bad. You know?

Amy: Yeah. So, you know, I mean, that's a that's a good question then. What, what do you think employees really want from a boss?

Chris: I think they want somebody that's gonna shoot 'em straight. I think they want somebody that respects and can relate to them in whatever it is they're expected to do with their job, their duties. I think it's somebody that they, they want them to care as much about their stuff as they're supposed to about the company. You see what I'm saying? It's, it is very hard and it feels disconnected. If you only care about one thing you want as an employee, you want your boss to care about you. Yeah. Not necessarily always the job you do, but they, you don't want to be just a number. You don't want to be replaceable. You want to be, you want to feel like you're a part of something bigger. Mm-hmm. And when you're able to get an employee to feel that they will never leave you, they will never leave you Ever. Yeah. Yeah. Because they do, they feel like they own it then, you know. Yeah,

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. I, I'm have worked, you know, over the years with a variety of personality styles, and occasionally I'll encounter someone that is so focused, and I, and they care a lot. They, they always care, but they don't know how to show that they care. And so I think that they come off as treating the employee a bit like a commodity to be, to be used and worked and, you know, it, rather than a person who has dignity needs to be respected and is offering themselves up for this job.

So, you know, I, and I think that we also have sometimes people that are afraid that if they're kind, that they're gonna be taken advantage of. So this whole idea of getting their respect, getting what has to be done, holding a boundary for around performance and still being kind is something we gotta learn. So, so how do you find that balance?

Chris: Honestly, it's, it's gonna be different depending on the personality. You know, you're gonna have the rough guy, you're gonna have the, the sensitive guy, you're gonna have the rough gal, you're gonna have a sensitive gal. When you know that though, it's You, You just can feel it click. Right. And I think a lot of it has to do with how you do handle problems. I've had bosses where there's a problem and they wanna solve that issue. And in, instead of, letting emotions calm down, things get said, that shouldn't be said. And you, you, that's very hard to come back from. Yeah. You almost have to let the problem work itself out and go back when nobody's all wound up in emotions, or a hundred percent going a hundred mile an hour. Let everybody cool down and you'll, you'll find out the real person. You'll, you'll learn more that way. Yeah. About a person than the other way.

And I think that's where that boundary comes from, and where that respect come from too. You know, it's not only what you're doing good in getting those things, but it's how you handle when a mistake is made. You, you, you can't treat them like they meant to do it. And that's what comes off a lot of times. And it's like, it's not like that. Nobody goes to work to make mistakes and be chewed out. You know, that's just not the way it works.

Amy: Right. So it sounds like for you, some of your, you know, formula for being successful in a management role is assuming best intention.

Chris: Yep.

Amy: Right? I mean, like, I, that's such a, that again, it Yes, of course. Nobody wants to waste their time just doing a crap job. It's not fun. It's harder,

Chris: It's Harder.

Amy: So, you know, I mean, people are genuinely making mistakes. I, but, you know, I, again, when we pull back, you know, we want to treat 'em like a person, and at the same time we want to, hold them to a standard. So if you had somebody who, let's say you've trained them on something and they just keep making the mistake over and over. Right. And it's frustrating after a while, it's re it's really starts to get frustrating. I don't know. What are you gonna do about that? What do you do?

Chris: You you have to, you have to find out if they even know they're making the mistake to begin with. You can say you've talked to 'em, but if it hasn't been clear and they don't realize they're making the same mistake, it, it's not always obvious to somebody who's catching the mistake as it is a person that's making it. Right. Yeah. Because it's not intentional. They're not, watch this, I'm gonna see if I can get away with one here. You know, that's just not the way it works. Yeah.

It, some people, they just in, in the position that I'm in, and let's just say dispatch, things get missed a lot of times. But a lot of it has to do with the fact you're multitasking 95% of the, the day. Yeah. And everything, everything needs to be done right now. A phone call gets made, they need something, you take care of it. You don't, you can't push it off for five hours and say, okay, I'll take care of it. At the end of the day, it needs to be taken care of right now. Yeah. So I think that's in my profession, that's where that gets to be a problem.

The other thing is, is you, when you have that conversation with 'em, you can't, you have to focus on the problem, not the person. Mm Mm And a lot of times that gets, the lines get blurred because you start believing it's the person rather than the problem. And then it becomes something more than what it needs to be. And you can't recover from certain things like that. You have to focus on the right thing, but still be civil. And sometimes you do have to lay down the law, but there's a different way of doing that. There's a respectful way of doing that. Nobody wants to be talked about or talked to, like they're a kid, you know? Yeah. Talk to them like their grown, like, like you would wanna be talked to, you know?

Amy: Yeah, Sure.

Chris: I mean, that's, that's the biggest thing, but you have to address it, but you have to address the problem and reinforce it's the problem, not the person. And how can you help them get past that and know that they made the mistake and that they realize the mistake they're making? 'cause I, where they don't even realize they're making the same mistake over and over again. Yeah, yeah. You know?

Amy: Okay. So I'm hearing two things, then I'm hearing treat them as a person. We're really treating 'em and, and we're seeing 'em as an individual. We're building a relationship with that individual. And when there's a problem, we focus on the problem, not the person

Chris: That's right.

Amy: Focus on the person and then not focus on the person. That makes sense in some kind of crazy way. But you're right. I mean, that does, it's good to hear it. Just from your perspective. So just as we kind of wrap up here, what, what do you think it means to lead with heart in this talk industry?

Chris: It means, that's a tough question, but a good question. Sometimes you have to do what's right by the employee, even though it may not be considered correct by all other standards or by the company. Okay. Right. You have an obligation to a degree as a leader to make sure you're protecting your people. Now, obviously if something's egregious, you can't, you can't protect certain things. But you, you want your employees to know that you have their back no matter what. You're gonna stand up for 'em, you're gonna do what you need to do for 'em. If they need something, you're gonna do everything you can within your power to make sure that they know that you're there.

Because being a leader and being a a manager, it's almost like a mentor, right? They're, they're all kind of one in the same tied together. Yeah. They're gonna lean on you with problems that you didn't even know that you were gonna be told about. But you have to realize that sometimes you have to pivot and be kind of a psychiatrist at the same time to help them through that rough time. And that's only gonna make that bond even stronger with everything. Yeah. But you have to, you have to lead with your heart first by caring about them as much as you care about the job, if not more about them than the job itself. Because the job is always gonna be there. The people may not, and that's where it becomes a major problem.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, those are powerful words. So then that showing, you know, caring, I, and it, you can't fake it, can you? We all have a radar. So if you don't care about people, man, you got no business managing them.

Chris: No, no, no. If, if, if you don't wanna deal with people, I always tell everybody, you know, when you're a manager, when you're a leader, it is, it is the most thankless job you'll ever have in your whole entire life. Right. Because when things go good, it's because your team is awesome. Yeah. When things go bad, it's your fault. That's, and, and, but that's the truth and that's the way it needs to be. And that's what Yeah. A real manager, a real leader understands and they take that to heart and they know that they let, they want their people to shine more so than themselves. And that's, that's what, that's what will make you successful in leading people.

Amy: Yeah. Years ago, we used to think that we could just treat, teach, managers to, for behavior change. You know, just, okay, do these things, do these, but what we really deeply understand now is that the mindset has to change the mi I have. I really, and so that means the heart has to change. So if you know you deeply actually care about people, then your mindset shifts around how you think about those people and the work they're doing, and then that changes your actions. So it all kind of works together.

But, as we finish here, just what does respect look like both ways? Respect the employee, respecting the manager and the manager respecting the employee. What, what does that behavior look like?

Chris: I think the biggest thing is, besides the respect, you have to be able to be, honest. You have to be able to trust the individual both ways. You have to be transparent to a degree. You're always gonna work with guarded people. But on the other hand, you have to be willing to show some sort of transparency. 'cause otherwise it looks like you're being shady about something. But you have to have the trust and you have to have the utmost respect. Hmm. Whether somebody's having a bad day or not. That's where a lot of things go sideways because you think you take it personally, right?

I know people that will go walking into a room and people are whispering into each other and they're like, oh my God, what are they talking about me? I'm like, dude, you, you need to calm down. They didn't even see you come in, you know? But, but some people are just, they're just like that. And that's okay. That's a good thing. But you just have to be able to realize and trust the other person. They know that you're looking out for them as much as you're looking out for the other. Yeah. And you have to be able to respect each other. And that will, that will carry you through almost anything you can get through. Because all three of those things are all tied together. Yeah. Line words, but they are, they're all tied together. Yeah. Every single one of them.

Amy: Well, and really, I mean, I, a lot of what we talk about in leadership training is I need to trust myself, respect myself. Right. I mean, I, it's, those kinds of things care about myself. I mean, we, we gotta model this stuff first and then, and then it's natural and authentic when we do it with our employees.

So, anyway, I really appreciate you, Chris. I love what you had to say.

Chris: Thank you. No, thank you. Thank you.

Amy: The, that trucking industry, is, those people are lucky to have you over there. I appreciate you so much joining me and giving me your thoughts around these topics.

Chris: Absolutely. Anytime you let me know.

Amy: You got it. Come back.

Chris: Alright. You know I will. Thank you.